Brandon: 0:00

When we go see productions, we don't necessarily think about if they are from the public domain. We just happen to find out certain pieces of them, or after the fact, we'll find out that they were influenced completely by public domain. We already mentioned Johnny Carson and Nosferatu. This speaks to the expectations we will have with something that we do know comes from that domain. You Hello and welcome to the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Chaisson, and like always, I'll be joined today by the great team that brings you cupofteacritiques.com we are excited to get started on our podcast where we will share our perspectives on several areas in movies and television. At cup of tea critiques, we review movie and television series and tag them with the tea brew that evokes a feel for the production in this way you can decide for yourself if they're your cup of tea. Here on the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast, we will dive even deeper into the productions and topics we broach on our website, engaging in conversation and sharing our unique perspectives. Ready for a deep look with the deep brew.

This week's topic: 1:06

Works in the Public Domain. So let's get started. Cup of Tea Critiques is a family business, and I'm here with my brother Chris, my mother, Reba, and my father, Terry and fam. I think the first thing we need to do for our audience out there is make sure we can define public domain for them. So guys, public domain is a category of creative works that are unprotected by intellectual property law. You know, Chris, you had a chance to give us a little bit more when you wrote your conference article. So let me go ahead and kick it to you, and you just kind of help us feel out and understand this even better?

Chris: 1:42

Yeah, so works in the public domain can be a lot of different things, really, movies, TV series. The World Wide Web entered the public domain in 1993 which allowed other people to make different iterations of it, and that led to the modern day internet characters, I think, is maybe the most interesting category of it, that different iconic characters can enter the public domain. And that's really what, what spurred me to research and write about it. Winnie the Pooh and I believe 2023 entered the public domain. And a filmmaker Rhys Frake-Waterfield made a movie called Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey, where he turned Winnie the Pooh and Piglet into serial killers. Because they were upset that Christopher Robin went away to college.

Excerpt from Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey: 2:48

Clip from Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey

Chris: 3:01

And I could not stop laughing at that premise. And I thought it was just a good illustration of when a character enters a public domain, they might be a different character. They might end up being a whole different character. And so I decided to kind of research, well, you know, what else is there about the public domain out there?

Brandon: 3:25

Yeah, I mean, we were laughing just now as you brought it up. I really want to let everybody know you really should check out this article, because it does give us a lot of analysis on there. And I will say, Chris, as I've read it, you must have had a lot of fun writing it because it was serious and hilarious for the same reasons, because when it comes to public domain, like you said, it's it's seemingly characters, and this gives somebody a chance to creatively, give a total different spin on somebody we've seen before. Winnie the Pooh being the prime example. I remember seeing him on my my childhood blanket, my character thing around like I was Linus. I Yeah, sorry, I gotta, I gotta throw that out there, Mom and Dad, you're laughing to I mean, did you ever think you were going to see the characters on my blanket end up being murders?

Terry: 4:12

No, not in my wildest dreams.

Reba: 4:17

No, I was thinking, who could do that? Flip Pooh on his head, like that. This character was actually created by A. A Milne. I think he's a British writer, actually, and he created this character back in 1926 based on his son's teddy bears. And it has grown to be just a beloved character, and a number of movies and television shows which I watched, and both you and Chris actually had a blanket that had we need a pool character. And I'm going to digress just a little bit here, as I was explaining to your dad this morning, I rested really well last night, and I actually dreamt about my mom, who passed away some years ago. In my dream, I spent I spent time with her. She and I went to the salon, for a walk. We spent time together. And it just seemed like a long period of time. And I felt so comforted during that time, and I just got to thinking that you and Chris carried your blankets around with you all the time, and if your blankets comforted you in the way that I felt comforted in my dream last night, then I certainly understand why those blankets meant so much to you. And I wonder if I went to you guys homes today, if it's folded nicely on your bed right now, or under your pillow because you don't want somebody to see it. But it's just, it meant an awful lot to you guys, so I just understand that. So the idea that, you know, Rhys Frake-Waterfield could, could take this iconic character, this sweet, cuddly bear, and turn it into a killer, is just, it's just mind boggling.

Chris: 6:21

Let me clarify something. I do not still walk around with a blanket. Do not walk around with a blanket. I do not suck my thumb. Yeah, so anyway, and I don't wear the same outfit every day.

Reba: 6:48

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have put you all on blast like that. My apologies.

Brandon: 6:52

Chris, there was a lot of backlash too, for taking characters that were so near and dear to people's hearts and turning them into just these horrendous entities for destruction. You want to expound on that too. I mean, that was just crazy to me.

Chris: 7:09

I can't think of any. I mean, there were definitely. There were angry tweets and stuff about it. I don't think there was any kind of actual movement against it, but it was obvious that there were people split on the idea of it, that some people were all for it, and some people were like, why are they doing this? This is going to this is going to ruin my childhood, you know. And then I just found the whole thing funny. Frankly, I couldn't stop laughing at just, just seeing it in Fandango for the first time, you know, when it was listing of screenings, I was like, wait a minute, Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey, like just even reading the sentence and seeing the picture, which, by the way, for anyone who hasn't seen the movie, it's just two dudes in costumes. It's not like, it's not like an animatronic bear or anything like that. It's just two dudes in costumes. And it's very obvious from the costuming, but yeah, so I think there wasn't any kind of fervor to the level of we had to stop this movie from getting released. In fact, it actually did, for the micro budget it had, it actually did well. It grossed 2 million in the US and Canada, and almost 8 million worldwide. So for a movie that had $100,000 budget, if not less than that,

Brandon: 8:29

Do you have an opinion on this backlash and people having such a big issue with that?

Chris: 8:33

For me, I mean, you all know me, I think Doug Funnie would probably be the character I would probably have the most if there was any character I would raise a stink about.

Theme from Doug Funnie: 8:44

Theme from Doug Funnie

Chris: 8:44

And then the only adjustment I would have a problem with is if he just didn't have an imagination anymore. Because that's what I love about that series, was that his imagination was so wild, and he always perceived situations as being so much worse than they actually were. So if they did a reimagining of Doug funny where he just had no imagination, maybe I would write a letter and go picketing.

Brandon: 9:14

We've been discussing more the idea of turning cuddly characters into killers, but you're right. If you take this, the imagination of Doug Funnie is what made the show. So if he turned into somebody completely literal, that would literally suck all the fun out of that character, at least the original idea with that character. So that's a really point, Chris, but I want to parlay that into something and Mom, I want to give you the floor here because we were discussing this again in pre- production, you talked about the creativity aspect of somebody that can find a character or an entity from public domain and turning it into something of their own. And I just wanted to give you the floor because you, what you said, was great. It resonated with a lot of people. I. Think they should have a chance to hear it.

Reba: 10:02

Well, what I was saying is, if you can think back to the kinds of games you created as you played outside with your friends, you think back to those games and the child like creativity you had then and you were unhindered by anything at that time. And so that allowed you to just be free and to just just be as creative as you want it to be. And so as we grow and we get these constraints on our time with you, name it, work, family, school, whatever it is, and not to mention just aging, then we essentially get what I would describe as, you know, corners in our brain, and this sediment that kind of settles into our brain, and it just makes it difficult for us to just be as free thinking as we were when we were children. And so when I heard about Rhys Frake-Waterfield's take on Winnie the Pooh, initially, I was taken aback. How could someone take such a cuddly, iconic character and turn it on its head like that, and that was my initial reaction to it. But at the same time, I can't help but admire his creativity and his ingenuity for doing something like that. He took advantage of what is a treasure trove of information, which is the public domain. And he went back to essentially a childlike state, and let his mind run free. I don't know how he was able to enter this state, but creators are able to do it. But he just let his mind run free. And he did this, and he created what is now a profitable franchise, and you can't help but admire something like that. And so I would just wonder if you could take yourself back to that childlike state and just let your mind, just let your mind run free. Just, just let it run free. What does that look like for you? What does it look like for you? What do you imagine? What could you create? And that's my take on this.

Brandon: 12:38

I think that's great, because you're right. I mean, when we were children, we were completely unencumbered, and now as adults, we tend to think about exactly the restrictions that exist out there. We don't think about having the free form to just just be creative. And it's sad when we lose that, and it's really awesome when we can get it back, even if it's just for a moment. We want to also make sure that people understand this is also something that's not new to the idea of using public domain. So sure, we were joking that somebody may be sitting there at the computer waiting on the date for some of these characters become available. But this has been happening for a long time, throughout the history of production. One case that I really enjoy is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes character. We've seen several different takes on this one, including the show Elementary recently is when we've seen Sherlock Holmes come through.

Theme from Elementary: 13:32

Theme from Elementary

Brandon: 13:35

There's also the spin off with his character Watson, which now has its own television series. And there was another production where there's an old Sherlock Holmes, and I'm sorry that the title escapes me, but we've always seen Sherlock Holmes portrayed as the super sleuth. We never thought about him aging. We never thought about him having a female companion, as opposed to somebody else, like they portrayed in in elementary and now we're seeing Watson get his turn to shine as a character. So public domain has been used in a lot of cases here.

Reba: 14:10

Well, one comment I want to make about Sherlock Holmes is what I like so much about what's been done with it in recent years is they've imagined them to be a different kind of character. They've put them in present day, as they did in elementary for one. And he wasn't in London, but he's in the US, even though he was British, and they gave him an Asian companion, who's a female and now we have Dr John Watson now being represented as a Black man in Morris Chestnut. And his story, it begins, you know, six months after the death of Sherlock Holmes. And so we get to see somebody who's pretty much in the background, you know, he was, you know. Homes as assistant. So I like the way they're kind of reimagining, sort of the Conan Doyle's work.

Brandon: 15:07

But speaking of items that recently made their way into the public domain, I swear it seems like somebody must be sitting on the edge of their seat with these dates listed, because as soon as certain entities become public domain, it seems like somebody snatches them up, and they want to completely turn it on its head. And Chris, you made this apparent to me, because I believe Mickey Mouse made its way to public domain, and as a result, now he's throwing his ring in the murderous hats. Is that correct?

Chris: 15:36

Yes, Mickey Mouse entered the public domain in 2024 and there is a horror movie in the works, I believe, called Steamboat Willie, which was his nickname. But I don't think there's a release date set on that yet. It might still be a production. So maybe it's the start of a trend. Maybe it's just these two movies. Who knows, but it's interesting to take characters so known for warmth and embracing others and making them stone cold killers. It's an interesting choice, but it just shows people can be really creative, and stuff being in the public domain, it's certainly another pathway to express that.

Reba: 16:26

What's interesting about that is Mickey Mouse is still essentially very much alive and well. I mean, Winnie the Pooh. I don't see as often in movies and television. Do you don't see them on Saturday mornings when you get up and watch cartoons, and in the afternoons, when kids come home from school or anything, you don't see that. But Mickey Mouse is alive and well. Disney, Disneyland, Disney World, are essentially built on Mickey Mouse. And so it's very interesting to see a character that's on our tongues on some regular basis enter the public domain without someone extending that copyright protection, and so someone taking advantage of that and turning it into something completely different. So that's what's very interesting to me. I mean, Winnie, the Pooh, you can say was vulnerable. Mickey Mouse, no. So that that's surprising to me.

Chris: 17:22

You know what I think is interesting. Let me also chime in. The reason maybe we've seen a couple of these is as horror movies are the biggest piece of the pie in terms of independent film. They're the the they're basically the cheapest genre to make if you're a filmmaker on a budget. So you don't generally need A-list actors. You don't need a whole lot of locations. So it's the most affordable genre for a filmmaker to try to produce. So it might explain why we were seeing a couple of reimaginings like this.

Reba: 17:54

That's a good point. I'm not sure if you mentioned this, Chris. It's also the most profitable genre in independent film, and it is because they can make them so cheap and potentially make an awful lot of money off of it. And Rhys Frake- Waterfield, I know we keep bringing him up like he's the only one that has made a horror film that has been profitable, but he is one that has used an iconic character in the public domain that has been profitable, and so it makes sense to use that thumb as an example. So yeah, you understand where people would go that route at the same time. I think it may be an easy route, but I'll let Brandon get to that.

Brandon: 18:36

I was going to get to that, but it seems like we jumped onto the topic. So I think it's okay for us to keep running with it to your point, it being the most profitable and the easiest genre to create, it's exactly why it turns into horror films. But in general, it seems like that is the big appeal to do something off a public domain. It can be something that you can snag a character that's relatively well known, but create a production on a much smaller budget and hope that it gets big, which was the case with Winnie the Pooh, considering it was a hit.

Chris: 19:05

Kind of an interesting thing to to think about. It's that taking creative license doesn't necessarily mean completely changing a character. You might just talk about something that was taboo when it was made, or just change a small, you know part of their identity or explore something that wasn't emphasized in the original work.

Brandon: 19:25

Good point. It would also be fun to see just those subtle changes. What is this character like if one piece of their personalities changed, as opposed to their entire persona? And we mentioned that, I mean, we brought up elementary and in that case, what we've always heard of Doctor Watson as being male, and usually it's been portrayed with this bowler hat in the mustache. And Elementary to Mom's point earlier, was an Asian female. So how does that change? Not just her character, but you know, the things that can happen with her character and with that part. Partnership. Is there a character where you would love for them to have explored just a subtle difference? Is there any character you'd love to see that with?

Terry: 20:12

Again, I did enjoy the take on Watson in elementary I thought that was really a nice touch to make the character female.

Brandon: 20:22

It could be anything in that sense, right? If we take a previous production and let's say if this character were married as opposed to single, or if this married couple were neighbors instead. And what does that do for the main character was that do for the supporting character? Does it make them more vulnerable to certain situations? Does that subtle difference, that subtle change, turn them into an entire different it'd be very interesting in the sense of public domain, if you're talking about subtle changes. And then I would love to see, you know, a director or creator like show us what that looks like.

Reba: 21:02

Yeah, I would love to see them turn to another genre. Again, we touched on this and that the horror genre is quite accessible, because those movies are inexpensive to make, typically, to Chris's point, they don't get A-list actors for them, and so they can do this fairly cheaply and potentially make a lot of money off of them. But that does not mean that every horror movie that's made is going to be profitable. So I just want to make that clear, and so to what degree is a filmmaker willing to take a risk that involves, obviously, a higher budget, to take a public domain character and do something in a genre that is not horror. I think, for example, It's a Wonderful Life. It's an extremely popular movie every Christmas James Stewart as George Bailey runs around anyway. It's a very, very popular movie. But I guess my thinking is, how can you change the character in It's a Wonderful Life, who I thought was a sap, you know? Could you make him less of, because it's a Christmas story about a businessman who gets shown what life would be like if he weren't in it. Essentially, if you were to take It's A Wonderful Life, and if you were to move him into the horror genre, it very easy to make him a murderer who says, screw all this stuff. But what if I were to ask a creative what can you do with a character like that, other than horror, shat would they say to me?

Terry: 22:51

Well, on along those lines, I want to go with what you're saying with this whole thing of going away from horror with characters. Count Dracula. What could you do with Count Dracula that isn't horror related?

Brandon: 23:09

So you're saying, go in reverse, take a horror character and spin them into something polar opposite of scary.

Terry: 23:15

Not necessarily polar opposite, but different. What would you do with a character like Count Dracula?

Reba: 23:24

Not make him a bloodsucker for one.

Terry: 23:26

Well, you could do, I've found in recent horror some interesting ideas along the lines of how vampirism gets spread, you know, or Is it a virus or bacteria? I'm not sure. But some way it gets transmitted from vampire to the new host and that kind of thing. And I'll voice thought those were kind of interesting takes on how that gets spread, and it lends itself to how do you deal with in terms of what is it? Epidemiology? Oh, so, yeah, how, how would you change his character? Maybe he's a researcher or something.

Brandon: 24:12

Actually, there was a movie done at this point, probably 15 ish years ago. It was a relatively new production. Ethan Hawke plays a character like that, Daybreakers. In the year 2019, a plague has transformed almost every human into vampires. Faced with a dwindling blood supply, the fractured dominant race plots their survival. Meanwhile, a researcher works with a covert band of vamps on a way to save humankind.

Excerpt from Daybreakers: 24:42

Clip from Daybreakers

Brandon: 24:52

But I don't think it had too much success. But I remember seeing that movie in theaters, and I thought the concept was actually pretty cool.

Terry: 24:59

Mm, hmm.

Brandon: 25:00

What's one of those cases where you've seen the public domain that you've actually enjoyed seeing the portrayal?

Reba: 25:05

I've seen pieces of works in public domain, but honestly, as I watch things, I don't think about whether or not those works are in public domain that and honestly, I didn't think about public domain until I began to read Chris's article. He always enlightens me on these kinds of things, and I started thinking about things differently. But I can remember seeing an episode of Castle, which was a show that I enjoyed very, very much, an ABC show. And there was a murder that occurred on the set of a talk show, and that talk show mimicked the Johnny Carson Show, which is in the public domain.

Intro to The Johnny Carson Show: 25:53

Johnny Carson Show intro

Reba: 25:54

And I remember when I watched this, and I was like, gosh, they stole that from Johnny Carson. Even, he even behaved like Johnny Carson. He was even the same stature as Johnny Carson. I mean, small frame like Johnny Carson, even had a sidekick like Johnny Carson. It was everything like Johnny Carson. And so I thought that was very interesting. So when I read that Johnny Carson Show was in the public domain, oh, okay, that's why they could get away with doing that so, but I can't say that there's necessarily a favorite show of mine that's in the public domain.

Brandon: 26:29

No, but speaking of the Johnny Carson Show, mom, the I felt like the set now that you mentioned, the set of the Johnny Carson Show was also utilized in Joker when they had the talk show host, that that movie is where I remember feeling connected to Johnny Carson with the way they they did the portrayal of that talk show.

Reba: 26:49

I will add one more thing. I apologize, A Star is Born which has been remade a number of times. The first version I saw, though was with Robert Streisand and Kris Kristofferson, and that was in the 80s, I think. And I enjoyed that film very much, but it was nothing compared to to Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga. More recent version of A Star is Born.

Excerpt from A Star is Born: 27:25

Clip from A Star is Born

Reba: 27:52

I just thought it was a great movie. Still, though it didn't occur to me that A Star is Born is in the public domain. Yeah, that movie, making it easily accessible for them. So to be able to do a film like that and not have to worry about copyright fees, saved them a lot of money in doing this film. And yet, it was, I'm sure, expensive, because I can't imagine Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga are cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Not to mention the music was fantastic, which is expensive as well. So, yeah, so that would be one.

Terry: 28:23

Yeah, that movie has been made four times, 1937 1950 1954 1976 which is the version that you mentioned, with Barbara Streisand, and then in 2018 with Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper, yeah, yeah. I'm more familiar with the '76 version, just as you are. I don't think I ever saw The Judy Garland version, which was in 1954 but yeah, that was pretty good. As far as characters or movies in the public domain, with me, probably the things that you mentioned already, which is Sherlock Holmes. I always liked Sherlock Holmes as a character, and the takeoffs on Elementary and in the new Watson, which I haven't seen yet, I kind of like that. I always like it when filmmakers take either a known story or character and they give us some kind of a twist on it. That's that's always been something that piques my interest. As I was telling Chris, we went to see Nosferatu, and it was well done, but as I told him, I was kind of hoping that they took a little bit of a different take on it, and that didn't happen. So in that respect, I was a little disappointed in there, but the movie was great. I enjoyed it for what they did with it.

Brandon: 29:46

Yeah, that's a very interesting thing that, because Mom, you mentioned this too, when we go see productions, we don't necessarily think about if they are from the public domain. We just happen to find out certain pieces of them, or after the fact, we'll find out that they were influenced. Is completely by public domain. We already mentioned the Johnny Carson and then dad you're talking about with Nosferatu. This speaks to the expectations we will have with something that we do know comes from that domain. I'm going to refer to your article one more time, which for people listening out there. You can find this article in the crumpet section on cup of tea critiques.com and it's awesome because, Chris, you end this article by giving some examples of using public domain and being absolutely ridiculous. So I mean, you have several options in your article. I didn't know if you had another one that you had in mind, just some sort of creative idea of what you would love to see using public domain and just kind of just letting your mind run free and creating something go for it.

Chris: 30:43

I don't know if I have a new example, but my, the other ones I list in that article, which I think, frankly, has some legs, is Snow, Snow White being a basketball coach.

Excerpt from Snow White: 31:03

Clip from Snow White

Chris: 31:08

Like a disciplinarian like Coach Carter, and she's got this roster of dwarves trying to compete in basketball, in a game that favors non dwarves. I mean, if we're talking about an underdog story, it doesn't get much, much better than that. So I wouldn't mind seeing it if, hey, if I saw that poster in Fandango, I'd be like, I'm going to go see that. I want to see I want to see if these, if these dwarves, can put up a fight.

Terry: 31:48

I want to see if they play old school basketball and go to the hoop, or if they just stand around and shoot three pointers.

Chris: 31:54

I think they go dirty. I think I think we're watching I think we'd be watching the pistons. I think they'd be elbowing them in the solar plexus if they could reach.

Brandon: 32:05

Hey, hey, grumpy on Shaq, that's what I want to see.

Chris: 32:10

Yeah, dwarves. Dwarves playing prison basketball coach. Buy Snow White.

Brandon: 32:19

That's hilarious. Dad, do you have an example of something you'd love to see portrayed using public domain?

Terry: 32:28

Yeah, mine's a little more mundane than that, Shakespeare tragedies. I'd like to see Shakespeare tragedies where the people actually succeed, Romeo and Juliet live happily ever after.

Reba: 32:48

Interesting.

Terry: 32:50

You know, those kinds of things. Yeah.

Reba: 32:54

You're romantic.

Brandon: 32:55

For those that didn't know out there, my father is a sap, so this is consistent with this character. And I'm, I'm proud of you for for that.

Chris: 33:04

Now I want to know how much of, how much of it is different, is it? Is the whole thing the same? And then as as Juliet's holding his lifeless body at the end, he just wakes up and says actually think I'm good.

Brandon: 33:14

I grabbed the wrong elixir. So I would love for anybody to run with this one. And I did blend between free access and needing permission with my idea. But I would love to see somebody do a creation using all of the different iterations of vampires. So I want to see a knock down, drag out series of Twilight versus Underworld. And I want to also include Blade and Dracula. I want to see a limited series release where we get to see all of these vampires fighting, and maybe they do it in a Highlander fashion. There can be only one.

Terry: 33:53

That's what I was gonna say.

Excerpt from Highlander: 34:02

Clip from Highlander

Brandon: 34:03

So let's go right. Now, but I want to see that. And I admit, though, part of the reason I want to see this is because I was not the biggest fan of diamond vampires that drove me words that I can't say on the air crazy. So I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what blades reaction would be to them, how quickly Dracula might deal with them. I don't think the Underworld vampires would stand for it either. So obviously you can tell which ones I'm favoring, but I would like somebody to run with this, because we got to know exactly which version of vampires really rule the night. So somebody, please go ahead and make that kind of production. I mean, you guys got any take on that yet? Take on that? Anything you want to say on that?

Terry: 34:46

No, I was going to bring up the Highlander thing. There can be only one. Yeah,

Chris: 34:53

You know what? Let me include another possible reimagining, because during the pandemic, I started watching some. Westerns that I was finding online. And Bonanza is actually a pretty popular series in the public domain.

Theme from Bonanza: 35:15

Theme from Bonanza

Chris: 35:18

So I'm just imagining Bonanza maybe in an urban, modern day landscape, if you just took those characters and removed them from the Old West and they're just existing in a metropolitan area in modern day society.

Terry: 35:33

No Ponderosa. You have them in Manhattan, huh?

Chris: 35:37

Why not?

Brandon: 35:40

Could you imagine some tumbleweed in Florida or something like that? All right, so with that, we're going to go ahead and wrap up this edition of the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast. Just a reminder for this article that we've mentioned and some other references, you will be able to find those links in our description for the podcast below. Additionally, we are just so thankful that you guys gonna decide to listen to our discussion today. Honestly, we really could go on and on like we always do around our dinner table, but we look forward to you joining us again next week to have another great discussion. You can stay in the loop on all things COTC by subscribing on our website, at cupofteacritiques.com you can also find us on Facebook, check out our Instagram,@cupofteacritiques and on Letterboxd at COTCritiques. For Reba, Terry and Chris, I'm Brandon. We'll see you next week for another deep look with a deep brew.