Terry: 0:00

So it's always interesting to me to go back and say, Hmm, okay, the director, or the the entire staff, had to decide, how are we going to film this particular segment? Are we going to use 16 millimeter because we want a certain feel, or are we going to use something that's larger because we want more clarity? It's just amazing. The number of decisions that you have to make and film gauge is just one of those.

Brandon: 0:38

Hello and welcome to the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Chaisson, and like always, I'll be joined today by the great team that brings you cupofteacritiques.com. We are super excited to get started on our podcast where we will share our unique perspectives on several different areas in movies and television. At Cup of Tea Critiques, we encourage critical viewing of cinematic presentations so you can decide for yourself if they're your cup of tea. Here on the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast, we will dive even deeper into the productions and subjects that we cover on our website, engaging in conversation and sharing our unique perspectives on each topic. Ready for a deep look with the deep brew? This week's topic, Shot on Film or Shot on Digital, a rundown of the different options and how they influence the viewing experience. I'm so looking forward to getting to this topic. So without further ado, let's get started. In case you're unaware, Cup of Tea Critiques is a family business, and I'm so happy to introduce my family to you. I'm here with my brother, Chris, my mother, Reba, and my father, Terry. Chris, you're going to have to help us out here, because when we were in our meetings previously discussing the film experience, you brought up film gauges, and that's how we ended up on today's topic. So can you, for all of our listeners out there, just help define film gauge so that they can understand it the way we now do.

Chris: 2:01

Well, film gauge is just the the the width of a film strip measured in millimeters. It goes from a certain range starting down at eight millimeter all the way up to 70 millimeter. And those you know can heavily influence the viewing experience based on how the picture looks.

Terry: 2:25

It's interesting. The more I learn about filmmaking, the more I'm amazed at all of the details that go into creating a film. And they're a huge number of topics, some of the topics that we've covered and we'll cover in the future. But this is just another one of those things where when someone is deciding to create a film, in some films, they actually shot with a mix of film gauges, just to convey that that particular feel for that particular film gauge. So it's always interesting to me to go back and say, Hmm, okay, the director or the entire staff, had to decide, how are we going to film this particular segment? Are we going to use 16 millimeter because we want a certain feel, or are we going to use something that's larger because we want more clarity? It's just amazing. The number of decisions that you have to make, and film gauge is just one of those.

Brandon: 3:28

Yeah, that to your point, like, it was very interesting, as we learned on this topic, it made more sense, why? Through certain pieces, you'll see different effects, and you can now that we've learned a little bit more on this topic, I can tell, like, oh, they filmed that differently than they did the others, not just based on angles or something that they did in post production, but they really started that at the beginning when they filmed it completely on a different size film guage. So that was pretty cool to learn. Chris, you actually, can you give us some examples to help people understand a bit better about what the different sizes mean, and maybe some correlation between those productions.

Chris: 4:02

Yeah, so, so the 8 millimeter, you probably don't see it much unless you're kind of a fan of some, some older stuff. I mean, there's, it's, it's often used for, like, home video. Kind of feel like a it's a more. You're creating a more kind of nostalgic effect. So you might see it in movies that have something to do with, you know, some somebody hearkening back to their childhood, or, you know, coming of age type story, some of the most popular movies shot on eight millimeter, which I'm ashamed to say I've seen none of are Polish, Polish Vampire in Burbank, Ozone, Attack of the Red Mutants, Year of the Horse and Mary Jane's Not a Virgin Anymore. So as you might, as you might guess. Um, Mary Jane's Not a Virgin Anymore certainly sounds coming of age to me. Um, Year of the Horse is actually a documentary about Neil Young's band. Uh, so I could also see it. I could also see a documentary filmmaker on a limited budget using, you know, the the most inexpensive film stock that they could find, which, for anyone wondering, eight millimeters, much cheaper than 70 millimeter um. So those are some of the the the eight millimeter brands. And of course, there's, there's also Super 8, which is shot with removing perforations on one side so they can get more of, more of the picture onto the strip. And same there's also Super 16. So moving on to 16 millimeters, it's a, it's a, it's a grainy, kind of a little bit dirty look to it. And it can be used for, for kind of more gritty dramas. A big the biggest filmmaker that's kind of associated with 16 millimeter is Darren Aronofsky, who did Black Swan, who did Pi who did Requiem for a Dream. His movies tend to be quite downtrodden They're, they're very dark. They're, they're generally have very downer endings. And so there's, it kind of makes sense to have, you know, a grainier, and kind of dirtier your look, because the characters are watching on film are going through a lot. And so it's so there's another film, for example, that was shot on on 60 millimeters Fruitvale Station. So that's another gritty drama, kind of a downer subject. But it is also used, you know, on certain occasions, to create a warmer feel for for movies such as Moonrise Kingdom, you know, by by Wes Anderson. So it can, it can be used to different effects. So, but those are some of the biggest examples of the 16 millimeter films. 35 millimeter is, is, take your pick. It's, as says, most common. It's the kind of catch all. It's, it's denser and deeper, and it's a little more versatile. So you can, you can blow it up, you can shrink it a little bit. So, but there's, there's tons of the I can I can name a few. There's, I mean, one, one, for example, that came out this year was Challengers was shot on 35 millimeter. But in all honesty, it's probably the biggest, the biggest batch of films out there. And if we move on to to 65/70 millimeter, which is very lavish, very big time, big big screen productions Christopher Nolan, pretty much any movie you're watching from Christopher Nolan was probably shot on 65/70 millimeter, which is projected on the 70 millimeter and shot on 65. Ben Hur, a religious epic, very well known these big, grand chariot races. They want to be put, put that on that type of film. So it's just for more grandiose productions like that. And as that said, certain certain movies will mix multiple film stocks together to kind of signify the passing of time. And I think a great example of that was The Fablemans, which came out last year. Steven Spielberg's kind of his coming of age movie of himself. Of course, he he when he's a kid. He's conveying his love of film and how it's you know how his shooting, when, when, when he was with his friends as a kid has changed over time. He starts an 8 millimeter, he gets a 60 millimeter, he ends up in 35 millimeter. So so if you mix different film stocks, you can kind of convey it's certainly coming of age or how, or how time is changing. And the same was done with Steve Jobs, the movie Steve Jobs, where they kind of mix different film stocks to convey when he was struggling as a young entrepreneur all the way to when he was a successful businessman. So very, very It's interesting. It's there's a there's more thought that goes into it than you than we would probably think when we're when we're sitting down watching it. And it just goes to show how many creative choices are made in the the production of just one film.

Brandon: 10:36

on this kind of topic, for example, my first idea on like the way things are shot differently came from actually sitting down and watching movies with you, mom and dad growing up, because I remember having the fullscreen effect on there, and you guys would be like, no, you know, we want the wide screen. And that's the first time I got the idea that things could be shot differently, because with widescreen, you can actually see the entire scene, as opposed to what gets cut off when you're watching something on full screen. Another thing for me that, Chris, you're helping me understand, which was kind of a little bit mind blowing, is I'm a I'm huge into the IMAX experience, and part of that is because just about any kind of movie that's blowing things up, I end up going to the theater to see, and a lot of those are shot in IMAX. I like that full effect where my face is basically blown off by both the action on the screen and the volume that can come across. But when you say things to me like Ben, Hur was shot with the same kind of film, my mind is blown because I thought of that as being something that was created much more recent. And it turns out, no, Ben Hur wasn't made in in 2012 it was made way back when. So it's, it's interesting to know that these the film gauges, have been expanding it over time, and not like it still goes back even further than just recent developments. With that in mind, I kind of wanted to just kind of throw out to the panel and everything. Can you guys tell me some of the like, favorite effects you guys like with film?

Terry: 12:02

Sure I can tell you, like you. I like IMAX for the experience, for a lot of things large and things that are blowing up. But avatar, I thought was probably the greatest movie experience to that point that I had ever had I thought I'm usually critical of because a lot of times it the effect just looks a little unnatural. Is the best way I can describe it, in terms of some of the the things, like helicopters flying around and that sort of thing. But Avatar was the first 3D experience I had where I really felt immersed in it, and it didn't look artificial. And of course, I did see that on an IMAX.

Reba: 13:03

I can say, as I've learned, I've looked back on some of the films I've watched and begun to think about what gauge these films were shot. Maestro is the one. Is one big one that comes to mind, essentially a historical piece about Leonard Bernstein's life that was done by Bradley Cooper. And and I find it fascinating that film began in the film begins in black and white when Leonard Bernstein was maybe in his late 20s. And it was kind of the film was really grainy, that the appearance and feel of the film was quite grainy then, and then it goes through these eras. So I guess the period was around 1940s or so, but by the time you get to present day in the film, it looks like it's, it's it's clear. It's what you typically see in film, and it's in color and such. And so I got to thinking, I wonder if he used different film gauges in order to give that effect, because he wanted to give that old, that old feel, that kind of nostalgic feel early on in the film, to reflect the era, the historical era when Linda Bernstein was just beginning his career. And so I'm thinking I would love to see, I don't know if Bradley Cooper has ever written about his technical decisions around shooting Maestro. But I'm very curious to know, did he use 8 millimeter, or likely 16 millimeter to shoot the first part of that film that to reflect the 40s and 50s, for example. And then he moved on from there to maybe get 35 and then moved on from there to maybe a 65 linearly or something. But that's what I thought about. And to your dad's point, these filmmakers in their pre production meetings, it must be pretty incredible to be a part of that, because they have to. I never thought about the decision to use film stock as being on their agenda, but indeed it has to be, especially when you're talking about these historical epic pieces.

Chris: 15:25

For me, I think seeing that Darren Aronofsky is insistent on using 16 millimeter I thought was interesting, because I always thought his movies could be like, as I said, could be very downtrodden. And so when I saw Requiem for a Dream, I thought, wow, what a great movie that I never want to watch again. I think it's, it's funny to think of the other aspects of the film that contribute to how you feel about it. I mean, the the the decision to shoot it the way he did it kind of enhances the subject matter in a way, and didn't appreciate that when I first saw it years and years ago. So that's what I think back to. And I think on on a bigger scale. I think about Twister I think about natural disaster type movies which I would, I would have assumed were shot kind of on the biggest film gage they could get their hands on. It turns out, both the original Twister and the one that came out this year were shot on 35 and they were blown up for bigger picture when they needed to be. But so I think that's interesting. The the certain, is that a bunch of choice, is that a whatever it might be, I think that's an interesting, interesting which, which films maybe surprise you with what they were shot on.

Brandon: 16:54

Chris, I agree with you, the films like Requiem for a Dream. It's great the film that they chose because it, I felt like it connected me to the subject matter a little bit better, like I felt more attached to the piece. However, it is one of those where, because it's so heavy, and same with Seven Pounds, it's not a matter of the movies not being good, or anything like that. It's that they made us feel almost too much. And that's a testament, though, to how well they were put together, in part because of the film, the film stock they chose to to use. Um, people that are listening are going to hear us talking about film, and they're going to think, Well, what about today's age where everything is digital and so like can and we, why don't we just go ahead and spend some time just speaking on the differences between film and digital and how they both are connected, but also how one is affected by the cost of the other right?

Chris: 17:43

So all the stuff we just said applies to about 10% of movies made today. A lot of movies now are shot on digital cameras. Which, which kind of it's basically just bringing things into the to the modern age. Essentially, it's, it's, it helps filmmakers, I guess, save on, on the cost of film strips, on a film stock. And so what in research, and we found that as recently as 2017, over 80% of films are shot on digital, and about close to 10% were shot on both digital and film, which leaves you very, very little actually being shot on strictly film and so, and that's, there's a fallout from that, you know, in terms of how it's, how it's processed, how it's distributed, and it's it can it's a cost saver for some and not so much for others. So we'll be getting into that shortly.

Reba: 19:02

So when we say that only 10% or 20% of films are produced on film stock, is that number tiny, because it's being influenced so much by Hulu and Netflix and the other streaming channels, I just wonder about that.

Chris: 19:23

Yeah, I think that's part of the evolution, too. I mean, I think that's part of and I think it's very intentional, which we can, we could also get into shortly here. But yeah, I think, yeah, that's, that's definitely part of it. Home Entertainment has increased 10 fold, and then some, specifically in recent years, with the with the with the popularity of subscription services, right? So, so yeah, a lot more stuff is either bypassing theatrical release or having as temporary at theatrical release, as you could possibly imagine, very limited release. And that could, that could certainly be one of the reasons. Well, it is one of the reasons. But,

Reba: 20:14

Okay

Chris: 20:14

Even most of this stuff in theaters, I think, is still, it's still shot on digital, you know, I think, I think in 2023 what they said was, you know, over, you know, this year was kind of, there was an uptick. It was like 60 or so films were shot on film. That's, that's not, that's not a ton. It's like a handful compared to, yeah, so I would actually still say most, most of this, even the most of the stuff in theaters, is still being shot on digital. I think, I think the distinction is, and I think the films that the films that get shot on on film are, I think, a lot from either, maybe the occasional independent independent films. I mean, a lot of these are A24, Searchlight, Focus Features. So there's some independent productions that they'll shoot on film. And there's also some very big name directors who insist on shooting on film, like like Aronofsky, like Christopher Nolan, Quentin Tarantino. Now, the Hateful Eight, for instance, was shot on, I believe it was 65. But they, they insist, you know, on shooting on film, because they can get that done. Other filmmakers are like, must be nice jerk. I gotta shoot on digital. It's the only way I'm gonna get this done. Quentin, so, yeah, I still think it's a pretty small percentage that are even, even, even of the theatrical releases that are, that are being shot on film.

Brandon: 21:57

Chris, you brought up a couple of, a couple of things, and I had two different directions. I wanted to take this, but I want to kick this to dad first, because as I'm listening and I'm hearing about Christopher Nolan's way of doing it, Quentin Tarantino's way of doing it, like to Chris's point, it must be nice that you can afford to do those kinds of things. But I wonder, to a certain extent, if that is part of the reason why we really enjoy the films that we see by them is because they were shot on that traditional film gauge and then convert it over to digital. Dad, do you feel any kind of similarity to that thought?

Terry: 22:30

I mean, until we started talking about this, I really never looked at a film in that way at all. It kind of it gave the impression that it gave but now, as your mother said, looking back at films, I can go, Hmm, you know, I wonder. They actually obviously made a conscious decision to film in this way and to use a certain type of film Gage. But yeah, generally speaking, I've always kind of just absorbed the film for what it was, never really thinking about the technical things behind how they made it and the decisions they made to to intentionally use certain types of film in order to give you a certain feel.

Brandon: 23:14

You know, it's, it's funny you say that because we talked about the fact that it's, it's changed our entire experience when it comes to how we watch our productions, including sticking around with the credits to get some of those details in the back. I'm wondering if they shot it in this film or this way, or whatever, and so literally, the credits have taken on a new meeting for us, because we're getting even more information, confirming our perspectives. Be with what you said, that there is something to the way they use these gauges to help us feel emotionally and connect to the pieces that we are watching. So like you kind of get more on that, like your take on it.

Reba: 23:49

Yeah, yeah. I agree with you 100% because as I watched, I really liked Maestro. It was a long move about two and a half hours or so. It spanned the life of Leonard Bernstein, and initially, when I started watching, it felt like a 16 millimeter type. But I understand why he did that, but I didn't understand that until the film began to progress, and the look and feel the appearance of the movie changed, and the time period changed, and so I understood exactly what he was doing. He was putting the audience. He was putting me there with them. This is where I am now. Come with me. I was very drawn in to this film. It wasn't just it wasn't just the acting, it wasn't just the music, it was that I felt right there with them. The countryside felt like the early 60s, and it was just right there with them. So I just thought it was an effective use, effective use of film stock to bring me to that historical era. And that's why I watched I asked a question earlier on the degree to which the film stocks should be used to reflect the era of the story. That is something we lose with digital if we go all digital. And to Chris's point, only, only 10, 10, 20% of films now are done with film stock. And because it's so expensive, only those who have the budget for it can do it. Which means, you know, you wonder, even for some of those historical pieces, should, would they have been stronger pieces, had they been done with with film stock?

Terry: 25:32

Well, that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Though, in terms of digital can you create all the various fields of film gauges with with digital. Can give the feel of an 8 millimeter, 16 millimeter, 35 millimeter, anamorphic, whatever. Can you do that when you're doing a film on digital?

Reba: 25:59

Yeah.

Chris: 26:00

Is it as simple as pushing a button or clicking a preset, though? I mean, to what degree can you replicate it? I think it's the I'm sure there's a I'm sure there's ways to do it. I'm just, is it? Is it the same?

Terry: 26:15

It it won't necessarily be the same. It's kind of like, and it's probably very subtle to some extent, like vinyl versus a CD. I mean, you could have vinyl and you get that authentic sound from vinyl, or you can have a CD to which you could probably record in some crackles and, say, Be feel they are. But my point is, is that I would imagine that. I don't know what the state of the art is now with digital but if it isn't a part of it now. It definitely is something that they are working on and renewable evolved to the state where they can do that to your point at the push of a button, in terms of, I want this feel, 16 millimeter feel. I want the 35 millimeter anamorphic look.

Brandon: 27:20

Yeah, to both of those points, I think that currently they have a button that they can press that they think is executing this well, but I'm going to draw a couple of parallels right quick. Number one, there are holiday albums that we listen to, and when it's vinyl, it just gives so much more of that warm holiday feel for me versus the digitized CD that I can now listen to of these same productions, and I could put that in and it's nice, or even if I have it digitally on, like my my phone or something like that, it's nice that they're clear, but they don't feel as warm as when I listen to that vinyl, and get to actually enjoy the holiday times with that. So I liken that to this conversation here, where I think that there's a recent I'm gonna be nice to not mention the name of this film. I have a lot of issues with it, but one of them, it's a recent action film that came out. We'll say in the last calendar year, that I absolutely believe that when they did the flashback scenes, they pressed a button and told me to feel a certain type of way, and they failed miserably. And I think it would have been way better executed had those scenes been filmed using actual film to give that sense. And I feel like when I look at certain other movies, they are purposefully done using older film or a different gaged film, to give me that sensation that I'm back in that time period, or that I am looking back in history, it's a flashback scene of somebody's life and doing, using the film gives me the actual feeling like it's almost a fuzzy memory of my own. I'm present within the film. I'm present within that moment, and I'm actually have enjoying this look back in my mind, similar to the characters they're trying to portray. And same thing with movies like, I believe you talked about this with jobs where they will film different time periods of that movie, with different film to give us the sensation of this occurred during this time frame. It has now progressed into this stage in his life, which is moving forward from his childhood or from his youth days to then, where he ultimately ended up at the end of his life, where he had become such a success, and you can see that much more clearly. So film, I think, can still express that better than a digital button to try and tell me to feel a certain way to Dad's point. At some point, they might master that, but currently they are not there.

Chris: 29:40

Well, well I also, and I agree with that to some degree, I also think this goes back to so many conversations surrounding producing anything, but specifically in film, it's just like there's there's the ideal method or the ideal process. Process, and then there's, there's reality like we might not shooting it on film, just may not be a reality. For certain. It may not. It just may not be if, if we're insistent that we do it exactly like this ABC, it might just not get made. So I think there's, I think it's, it's, it's there. There's an element of compromise in so many different aspects for every and I'm not just talking about shooting, what you shoot on, just, you know, how many actors earned? How many, how many sets can we use? How many settings, how many, how expensive can this story be? You know, I mean, the the kind of joke I always make with some of my friends who shoot stuff, it's just like, you know, somebody comes to them with a script, and they're like, I got this great idea for this short film that takes place in an airplane. And it's like, oh, wait, do you have an airplane? It's, you know, there's, there's, so there's, I, even though I agree that there's, there's an authenticity to the way we used to do anything, listen to music, you know, shoot movies, etc, etc, and maybe something's lost when we bring it into the new age. I think about to go to take it further. I mean, we used to give each other CDs as Christmas gifts, right? And it felt good when you nailed that person's taste. Or it's like, I knew you wanted that CD. Well, now if you give somebody a CD, it's like, thanks. I already have every CD this artist came out with, but thanks for this CD, right? Like, we that's just something we lost, you know? But I so I think there's, there's a little bit of, there's, there's compromise in it, I guess is, all I'm saying is that sometimes, sometimes it's just not a real, a reality that we we get to do things the old way.

Reba: 32:08

Yeah, I agree, Chris, no doubt, no doubt. But it doesn't change what we want. You know, it doesn't change, it doesn't change our desire for authenticity.

Chris: 32:25

It could be a prompt to kind of dive deeper into this, in terms of, what are all these elements of photography? Photography is, you know, I'm using photography and cinematography, but it's very complicated, and I was never drawn to it, you know, when I was in film school. So, so, but learning all the different aspects of it, I think it could be interesting. I just think reading about it in a broad and learning about it in a broad sense, and then telling the industry how they're feeling is kind of, I don't know. I it's, it's maybe presumptuous, I guess I don't know.

Brandon: 33:12

Another, another thing I wanted to touch on, Chris, we're talking about digital versus film, and a lot of a lot of our audience members are going to probably think, at least to a certain extent. Well, I'm saving a ton of money because I can actually do all this stuff from my phone. So can you speak some to that kind of feeling in this, in this new technological age, we're actually able to put together some pretty good productions without having to deal with any of the equipment and costs like what we're kind of discussing.

Chris: 33:38

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's, that's, you know, the, I mean, phone, the advice you're recording on the places you could post it are opening up a lot of, opening up a lot of doors for people who don't have those resources. You know, if you could shoot on your phone, put it on your YouTube page, you can get, you can get see somebody could see it. Or you can, as we talked about in a previous episode, at least get a proof of concept out there that you could show to somebody, you know, and it's, it's, it's not going to be perfect, but it's a lot more perfect than air. So it's just, there's just a lot of, I mean, even even in that can pay off for even bigger filmmakers. I mean, Sean Baker, who did Anora this year and The Florida Project. Previously he has he towards the end of The Florida Project, was shooting on an iPhone. This is this is a pretty popular movie that was shot partially on an iPhone, as we found out. You know, some of that was due to budgetary restrictions. It worked out because I think he used it on the best way he knew how. But I. But to your point, I mean, it can, it can bridge the gap for a lot of for a lot of people that on whatever scale.

Brandon: 35:09

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about bigger productions and everything, but something as small as they like home movies. So like Mom and Dad used to film some of our events off of the the old school camcorders, but you have to actually have film for that. And then nowadays you it's not uncommon to be at your kids performance or something like that, and see about 100 phones go up to record. And the quality is just so nice. I admit I will look back on some of those things you guys have recorded. We've converted them on to DVD and such. So there's a little digital aspect to it, but I've watched those, and then I've watched performances of my child and seeing a difference in the quality, not that that takes away from the experience, but it reminds me of just how far we've come from film to now things being on digital. And for the record, the digital does cost more at the beginning acquisition, because that phone cost more than the camcorder did in the past. I know that she purchased for the time, but,

Chris: 36:08

Yeah, but you can pay. You could pay $12 a month for, you know, 85 years and get the phone.

Brandon: 36:13

Sure they come up with better payment plans nowadays, but it still costs. And, we say they kind of ingest but it really is true that the acquisition cost is actually so much more, and that's kind of where I want to take this next is due to this digital age, we're finding that that cost really is high, and that is kind of getting passed on to the consumer, if not by accident. Chris, we were talking about this earlier. Chris, Mom and Dad, whoever wants to jump in first, but just how, because of the new digital age that is affecting the actual cinematic experience, what do you what do you guys want to say to that?

Terry: 36:58

Yeah, we were reading an article that Chris had given us relating how digital converters are costing upwards of around$100,000 which is a steep cost for some small Indie theaters when you think about going digital for distribution, it's quite cheap, a lot cheaper for studios to distribute hard drives at about $125 each versus the film, which is, I think we said, about 2000 per so that's a huge reduction in cost for them to do the distribution, but in order for smaller theaters to be able to use that content, it's somewhat of a prohibitive price for them. So they've gone through various ways of trying to raise money to be able to move into the digital age, but it does affect some of the smaller shops. I know we used to appreciate going to some of the smaller theaters in our neighborhood, just because they had really good popcorn for starters, and it was a nice experience.

Reba: 38:17

Yeah. I mean, I agree with you that it's difficult for small businesses, these small kind of neighborhood independent theaters, to shoulder that kind of cost $100,000 for a digital converter so that they can show these films. So it's what's the irony here, is it's a lot easier for filmmakers. It's a lot easier for filmmakers to make, especially young filmmakers, to make their films, but it's very difficult for independent theaters to show them, because of the cost, and as a result, a number of these theaters have closed because they simply can't shoulder that. And that isn't, indeed, unfortunate. Initially, though, when a lot of these films were made, were beginning to be made on on digital, the studios did provide a subsidy to the independent theaters that to help shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, those were temporary subsidies, so it was inevitable that many of these theaters would not be able to hold up to that. I wish I had the numbers in front of me for the number of theaters that have had to close, but it's no surprise, I guess, that we've seen kind of a growth in these huge cinemas.

Chris: 39:40

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. The the digital projectors now cost like $100,000 in you know, film projector was not even, I don't think even 10% of that. And if you think about it, the independent film theaters already have a film projector. So, so it's essential. We, you're taking something that they didn't, that they already had, and replacing it with something that's 10 times or more of the cost of what, what that original piece of equipment was, what, what small business is going to be able to sustain after something like that, unless M and M's are suddenly a grand, a grand, a grand, a bag. So yeah, so I think it definitely hurt, hurt a lot of smaller theater chains or or just independent theaters, and that was not, I don't think that was the purpose of it, necessarily. But I think the point was the slow progression towards cutting theaters out of the picture, because a lot of these productions, or a lot of these, you know, production companies, they're going to make their money back on home entertainment. You know, they don't have to, you know, they don't necessarily have to split the profit with the with the theaters themselves the same way. So, so, yeah, I mean, that was, that was one step in this kind of gradual process, and that was starting a decade ago. So maybe, maybe longer. So, yeah, and so it's kind of a you give it and you take it away, right? Like certain filmmakers now can make a film if you don't have a big budget, you can make it for less and less of a hassle, but, and on the backside of it is certain businesses, they go away. And so I think that's, that's the unfortunate side of it for sure.

Reba: 41:39

Yeah, absolutely. And there's an experience that you look forward to when you go to local theater, being able to see your neighbors there, and knowing the people that work there. And there's that experience you look forward to and you just it's not that there isn't something great about being able to watch content from the comfort of your own home, but if your only option is to go to a cinema or to stay home, it's unfortunate that there's nothing in between. So, so yeah, there's certainly, there's certainly something lost there, which I'll plug this. Interestingly, you wrote about this, Chris, about 2, 2, 2, and a half years ago or so, when you talked about how cinemas are becoming so you know how many people go to theaters much anymore, and it's partly a result of these cinemas that have been built up that have bars in them now where people can actually go and sit and have drinks, etc. You don't have these just neighborhood theaters that you go to for the popcorn that Terry likes, or the M & M's that used to be 50 cents. Yeah, and just get that kind of old neighborhood feel. So, yeah, it was, it was a really good article. They were really good points.

Brandon: 42:59

Yeah. And I think that's where we can leave this one right now, because just making sure everybody understands that what kind of effect is having on us that we didn't even know, even though we're enjoying the film going experience it has come with a cause with that. We're going to go ahead and wrap it up for this edition of the cup of tea critiques podcast. We hope you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed sharing today's conversation. Honestly, we could go on just like every other time, but we do look forward to you joining us again next week for another great discussion. You can stay in the loop on all things cLTC by subscribing on our website, at cup of tea critiques.com you can also find us on Facebook. Check out our Instagram, at cup of tea critiques, and on letterbox at CLT critiques for Reba Terry and Chris, I'm Brandon. We'll see you next time for another deep look with a deep root. You