Chris: 0:00

Uh, Deep Blue Sea in our in our minds, these, these genetically enhanced sharks, are the villains hunting down these humans. But who was messing with the sharks like he was going there. You could have just left these sharks alone. You're, you're the one shooting them up with stuff. And then you get mad when they're mad when they're hunting, it's like, well, they gotta get they have to find their own food.

Brandon: 0:57

Hello and welcome to the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Chaisson, and like always, I'll be joined today by the great team that brings you cupofteacritiques.com. We are super excited to get started on our podcast where we will share our unique perspectives on several different areas in movies and television. At Cup of Tea Critiques, we encourage critical viewing of cinematic presentations so you can decide for yourself if they're your cup of tea. Here on the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast, we will dive even deeper into the productions and subjects that we cover on our website, engaging in conversation and sharing our unique perspectives on each topic. Ready for a deep look with a deep brew. This week's topic, villains. I'm so excited to get to this topic. So without further ado, let's get started. In case you're unaware, cup of tea critiques is a family business, and I'm so happy to introduce my family to you. I'm here with my brother, Chris, my mother, Reba, and my father, Terry. Guys, I'm so excited because I know, at least individually, if not all at the dinner table, we have talked about villains ad nauseum. So like, I mean, I'm really excited, because I want to share with everybody, like, our different takes on what makes up a good villain a bad villain. Like, I know we've had some some colorful conversations on some of the bad villains and some of these productions. So let me get started by just asking, let me ask the board what makes up a good villain.

Chris: 2:29

I can go first. I when I thought about this topic, it was I had seen the Beekeeper, which was a Jason Statham movie that came out pretty recently, and the the villains in that movie, um, are they technically good villains or iconic villains? No, they're just scammers. And we all hate scammers. So, so in a sense, you're, you're, you're kind of watching the typical Jason Statham formulaic kind of movie, but you're like, enjoying it. You know, even if you're a fan of them, you're enjoying it even more because you're like, Yeah, that's what I wanted to do them when I got scared. So, so, as an unconventional villain or but just maybe one that that buys into to your escapism a little bit, or your your your, this is dopamine rush of beating up a scammer because we've all wanted to do it before like that was a good a good villain. I think, um, I think intelligence makes good villains. I think charisma makes good villains, not necessarily charisma in the sense of they they're charming to other people. It's just they have this. They have their own. They have the style about them. And this, this kind of like confidence. I think that makes good villains, I think, and just kind of some, some kind of understandable reason why they're doing what they're doing. We can agree that whatever violence they're, you know, putting into motion is is bad, but, you know, it's, it's something about what they're saying. They think of Killmonger and help me out here, Black Panther, but like, just what they say things that make sense. And they're, they're, it's not just like, yeah, I want to blow up the world for no reason. Like they have some logic behind what they what they're, the actions that they're they're putting out there. And I think, like for instance, for me, a good villain is Kevin Spacey in Seven and I think it's because he's just, he's so indoctrinated. And those, like, those kind of villains can be really scary, like they, they've bought into this idea. Like he's he's influenced by religion, which can have a very strong hold on people, and so he's it. He's killing people in the name of the seven deadly sins. It's very hard to to dissuade somebody who's so in on whatever their you know, whatever their ethos is when it's when there's religion behind it, when there's doctrine behind it, like that. So that just makes him scary to me, because it's like there's no way to talk this guy down.

Terry: 5:35

For me, sometimes you don't necessarily know what the villains reasoning is behind what they're doing. So there's a bit of intrigue there, as far as your sinister but we don't know why. And of course, over the course of the film or TV series or whatever, you start to understand what that reasoning is and to Chris's point, it does make sense. Good villains to me. I think Bad Boys. One, the villain in that guy was pretty good, because he was scary in that he was not one that just flew off the handle and said things he was very controlled, and you knew that he would do just about anything in order to get what he wanted and die hard won. I think the villain was very good, to Chris's point, he was someone that was smart and, you know, maybe thought he was a little bit too smart. He was another one that you didn't really know exactly what he was doing. His purported reasons for doing it was one thing, and of course, he later turned out to understand what the true reasoning was. But I think those two villains fit into kind of what Chris was saying. There's some some charm or charisma about them in terms of the way they carry themselves. I don't think the bad boys villain was trying to to do that necessarily, but by his sort of calm demeanor, he knew that he there's something inside of him that was just very, very, and I won't say evil, but very shrewd and scary.

Brandon: 8:42

This is a good way to start. Mom, what about you? What do you think makes a good villain?

Reba: 8:46

I think a good villain, I have to agree with both your dad and Chris. They have to be methodical in terms of the way they go about their business, and they have to be controlled and just not feeling a villain that flies off the handle very easily. They really have to make me stand upright and pay attention, much like parents do when, you know, kids act up in a grocery store, the parents that just give their kids a look, and that's all they have to do when the kids just straighten up and fly right. I need that kind of villain, not that parents, that's the kind of villain I'm looking for. Those are the kind of like. And so I think, for example, about heat, all the villains in Heat, De Niro's character in heat, my he's probably my favorite villain of all time. He's he was very controlled, very methodical. It was obvious. He did not play. Are you serious? He's just a serious man. I also like the villain and Bad Boys. Your dad, I think just, just pointed that out. The villain in Bad Boys was, he was a very, very good villain, villain. I didn't like what he did, I didn't like what he did, but he he was somebody didn't mess with. He made that clear. So he was very good. And Denzel Washington's character in American Gangster. Yeah, he was great. I mean, he was absolutely, he was just, he was just fantastic. Incredibly tenacious, obviously, only as and only as violent as he needed to be. I thought he was very, very good in that i Those are the kinds of villains I like.

Chris: 12:15

And let me go to here before you go on to the next point. I I think American Gangster and Denzel character, and that is a good example of like, what really starts to scare you in a in a villain, is when it doesn't seem like any anything is too far for them. You know this, there's the scene for the people who haven't seen the movie, the scene where he confronts, he confronts another gangster on the street who hasn't paid him his money. Yeah, and, and the guy calls his bluff. He pulls out a gun, puts it to his head. A guy calls his bluff again, and he shoots him. Yep, in broad daylight with people around, and he just walks back to the restaurant. Yeah, like, it like, it's like it was nothing. And you see his own family, his cousins are scared of him, and people on his side are scared of him. How am I supposed? Yeah,

Brandon: 13:11

I love this.

Chris: 13:13

Sorry.

Brandon: 13:14

No, no, sorry, sorry. I was just gonna say I love how you guys all touched on a lot of things I wanted to speak on, and actually in all three different movies to close out with the American Gangster situation. Part of the reason why I enjoyed him as a villain is exactly that scene. But for me, it's that also I want my villains to have some sort of code. And in his case, that was exactly the situation. Don't screw me and I will not screw you. He wanted his 15% so after blowing the guy's brains out, all he took was the 15% that was owed to him. So it made it very clear that these simple parameters will keep you alive. So it also instilled some sense of loyalty and fairness to the people he that worked for him. They understood, as long as I stay within the lines here, he will treat me with respect, and we can operate and both make money, but if I try and cross him, there will be consequence, dire consequences. We've all mentioned a bit about the the Bad Boys guy, and so we're to be specific, we're talking about Bad Boys 1. While I also say there were some other good villains. But in the Bad Boys 1 the one of the things with him as well was he was decisive. When he made a decision, he moved forward, and it was even within the plan that he had already created. So when the movie first begins, the guy we learn is the distraction, and then his plan was to make him completely the distraction by blowing him out the back of the van, you know, and it wasn't any hesitance in his move. He made that decision. The guy was gone. When one of the guys messed up with the plan, he got rid of him without hesitation. Everybody knew that was what was going to happen. And when the cops got in the way, he made a decision to go after, you know, their witness and say, look. Like, this is what I'm going to do, if you do not just get off my back to do what I have to do. And you believed him at that point. It's later in the movie, and you knew that woman's life was 100% in danger because he had already said, If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. So I love the fact that he was decisive. He was believable in that sense. And then Chris brought up Killmonger In Black Panther, and that one leads to when the villain has a story, but in this case, he had every reason to be angry based off of what had happened in his life. Now, not everybody was aware of his history, and a lot of the people in that situation were not involved in what led him to that moment. But that didn't mean he wasn't a good villain, or that he wasn't justified in His anger, and that was part of it is that when you can empathize to a degree with the bad guy in the story, that makes him even more dangerous, that makes him even better villain, in my mind, because now as an audience member, you're conflicted. Do I really want to be against this guy? Because really, he's getting a bit of retribution for the wrongs that have happened to him. So that was some of what, what, what, for me, makes a good villain. But one more thing I want to say is I think the director plays a role in how well a villain is received to the audience. And I wanted to bring up one particular one that I know all of us were absolutely terrified of. And when you think back this, this show is on years ago, but The Practice and at the end of the season, when they revealed to us that the killer was actually a beloved character in George, yeah, but they didn't reveal him like he hadn't been arrested, he hadn't been caught. We just knew a lot of the details, and they made a cliffhanger at the end of the season where they revealed him to be exactly the murderer we had been looking for. And I'll never forget the fact that when that episode ended, all of us were scared, yeah, yeah, that nature was one of the best villains because we were afraid, and we we couldn't wait for the next season to come. But at the same time, we were scared about how the season was going to be because we knew the truth now, and they had done such a good job of just waiting till the last moment to reveal that to us, that I thought that was one of the best villains that we could have come come across. What do you guys think about that?

Reba: 17:23

Yeah, hey, yeah. We agree with you in that. In that instance, the direct again, the practice was, though, instead of a movie, it was actually just a one hour television show. And so I don't know how much they've been looking at what directors can do in that sense versus what they do in terms of a theatrical release, I'm not sure how much those how comparable those are, that's a good point, but nonetheless, I agree with you 100% with regards to The Practice. I remember the episode you're talking about. It was a television show about a bunch of lawyers, and boy, the director did a fantastic job just slowly panning the camera in the way they revealed who this really was. And it scared all of us. It scared all of us. It was just, yeah, it was very, very scary.

Chris: 18:19

And in particular with the direction when it's when it's an anonymous villain, we don't know who the when we don't know who the villain is. They're in charge there. They have agency over how it's revealed to us, right? And that was a good example of them picking the framing it in the scariest possible way, yeah, and so and so. Now, not only did they do that, but it creates this dramatic irony, because we know he's the killer, and the people that he's the closest to don't know and so, so there's that added suspenseful element of it. Um, two other things I wanted to add, as far as what makes a good villain. You know, and then we like characters who are funny, like we like characters who make us laugh. So if there's a villain in a movie that's funny, you know, even just being themselves, we're going to want to see them on screen, and they're going to appeal to us in a way, even if we don't agree with the what they're doing. So I think a good sense of humor can make a villain, can make it for a really good villain and a memorable voice.

Brandon: 19:29

you You beat me to

Reba: 19:30

interesting.

Brandon: 19:31

I was going to mention a voice because another one of my favorite villains of all time, and I don't remember the character's name if they even gave it to us, or whatever Phone Booth. Phone Booth was, I won't call it necessarily, the greatest, but what I really enjoyed is that the whole thing of it is that it kept the villain anonymous. We never saw the villains face. And because he had knocked off people, he was a sniper knocking off people and whatnot, like you. Knew you had to be afraid of him because you couldn't see that kind of that was part of the the appeal. Part of what left you on the edge of your seat was you're like, who's next? And is this guy in the phone who's going to be next and who is even on the other end of the line, we don't have that person there, and so it the longer you don't have context or visual of who the villain is, the more fear you have. And that was where the parallel I was going to draw between, because, Mom, you brought this up, and I thought you were perfect with the television has the benefits of taking a series, taking the whole season to reveal who a villain is, and that's what the practice was able to do here over, not necessarily, several successive episodes, but they had, over time, they built this case and built the, I guess, the legend of this killer, and then that's when ultimately it was revealed to us. We had about, like a good, I want to say, at least five or six episodes where they had kept bringing this killer back into play, but we only knew of their crimes. We never knew who the individual was. They were also able to get away with it, which was a little bit terrifying. So then to find out that it was somebody that was close to us, because it was a recurring character that turned out that was the villain. Like that was one of the benefits to the TV show. Well, Phone Booth in a smaller timeline, because it only had, like hour and a half, two hours to build that up. Similarly, we had the whole show for them to reveal all the reasons for us to fear this person before we ultimately find out. At the end, we find out who it's supposed to supposed to be again, we I don't think we ever see the villain at the end, but that led to a lot of the fear factor that made this person a good villain in my eyes. So that very big soapbox moment over, I also want to kick it to you guys, because we've also witnessed some not so fun villains. They were not very believable for whatever reason. So let me, let me flip it now, what makes a villain not not a good character?

Terry: 22:35

Um, disorganized villains. They just, they don't seem to have any rhyme or reason as to why they're doing. I mean, I guess on the one hand, you could consider that frightening and that they're just so unpredictable that it could be scary, that people have absolutely no direction in what they're doing. They're just crazy villains, but disorganized villains and unbelievable. And what I guess, what I mean by unbelievable is they're just, they seem to be so inept, you go, how could this person commit any crime and get away with it because they're just so inept.

Reba: 23:23

Yeah, yeah, I agree with I agree with you. Terry. They, they don't make you sit up and fly right. That's, that's what my mom used to say, sit up and fly right. They just don't. They don't do that. They don't get your attention in that way. They there's a totally unbelievable they don't plan well. They don't have a good a good reason for doing what they do, and they don't convince me how far they're willing to go to do what they say they want to do. I would think they might sell wolf tickets.

Chris: 24:07

Yeah, I agree with that. And to kind of piggyback off of that, I would say insecurity. Insecure villains are, is makes a lame villain. Like, if you're I, for some reason, like I just need to feel like you're, you know, this is, this is how I operate. I have no bones about it. I have no second thoughts about it. And, you know, I'm motivated by whatever I'm motivated by. I think that's a better villain than somebody who's insecure that the example I would come up with this guy, Pearson, Iron Man III, just a lame villain. You know, the his origin story is he got his origin story is he snubbed in an elevator by Iron Man, and he's mad about it like, Well, what exactly is scary about this guy? Just like, it's, it's, it's a terrible, it's like, a, it's a, he's, you've already established that this guy's kind of lame, like he's just kind of, so how am I supposed to be scared by him? Yeah

Brandon: 25:13

Yeah, Chris, I'll go, oh, sorry,

Chris: 25:15

Yeah. There is one more thing I would also say, just impulsive villains, because you're if you don't, if you're not calculated enough, you're you know your demise is going to be relatively soon. You know, to me, and a lot of people could probably disagree with this, but I think Scarface is kind of a bad villain. For that reason.

Terry: 25:38

you're not good. You just

Chris: 25:42

He was very he was he was impulsive. He was so he had anger issues, and he was just going to get himself in trouble sooner rather than later. He's getting high off his own supply, for starters, so he didn't have any he didn't have any self control and and he's got anger issues. So he's, he's, it's like he's not long for the villain role. He just knew his demise was coming, and maybe that's the point of the movie. But I just felt like that made him It made him less he wasn't. He just wasn't quite as smart to me.

Terry: 26:43

Yeah, it's interesting that those people we don't consider good villains, but like I was mentioning earlier, sometimes that completely wild unpredictability some people see as scary and a villain to be feared. But yeah, I agree if, if a villain was just, kind of just out there, it's really hard for me to get behind that and be convinced that, you know, okay, this is someone who's terrifying and to be avoided. Again, you might want to avoid the completely wacky person that has absolutely no rhyme or reason as to why they're doing what they're doing. But I don't think that makes a good villain in a in a film or TV series for that matter.

Reba: 27:30

Good villains also, to me, can't talk a lot. They can't be verbose. I mean, shut up. I mean, say what you're going to I mean, do what you're going to do. They can't. They can't talk a lot. Shut up. They gotta shut up and do what they say they're going to do. Yeah, you know, they you issue orders. But you didn't see the Godfather talking a lot. You know, the guy in Bad Boys, too, Robert De Niro, and he didn't talk a lot.

Terry: 27:55

But on this note of villains not talking much, in Die Hard 1, he was quite talkative, and I thought he was a good villain, even though he said a lot, he ran, he ran on, on some things, quite a bit, but he was a good villain, right? But I get your point generally, yeah.

Reba: 28:18

I wouldn't call him verbose.

Terry: 28:19

You're just talking about, oh, yeah,

Reba: 28:21

Almost like he was reading some academic texts or something, but he wasn't able to quite control.

Chris: 28:27

I think sometimes the the the a lame villain can be made lamer by the, you know what he's, what he's relative to, right? Like, you have, like, the the a lot of these movies, a lot of, I feel like the lame villains we see in movies are in sequels. And it's, it's because you've already had this scary villain in the original movie, and now we're, we're comparing this guy to that, and we're like, you just don't measure up. Like you're missing this, that and the third and so I think the you know, you had the that boys, one villain, who was, who was scary, who was he? He had no regard for human life. He but he was, he was mission oriented, he said, But he told the chemist, I, I'm giving you this much time and I'm going to put a bullet in you. And then he did it. And then you had this guy who's just didn't seem to have a plan for anything in the second movie, and it's like he looks bad enough on his own, but now you're judging a relative to this. You know this much better from the same franchise.

Brandon: 29:32

I'm with you on that, because we, we've lamented about the bad boys two villain several times. Because, I mean, how much can you really fear a guy that's shooting at rats in his attic, like and destroying his money in the process. And I don't think he got any of the rats, by the way, so he's not even, not only is he shooting his own money, but he's a bad shot. So can we really be afraid of this dude? Um.

Reba: 29:55

Years after watching, years after seeing that movie, it's kind of like the way I feel. Jurassic Park too. Brandon and I still complain about Bad Boys II. We want our money back from those two movies. They're terrible.

Brandon: 30:11

Yes, yes.

Reba: 30:12

Sorry. I interrupted. I apologize.

Brandon: 30:14

No, you're good. You're good, because I was pretty much going to go the same route. It's just that, like, I'm still so disappointed in bad boys too, in terms of the villain that, like, you can't have the one you had in the first one. You literally got so many rave reviews because of everybody's performance on there. And you just totally disregarded that when you made the sequel. And Chris brought that up, is that we're going to compare to the previous movie. And so if we're going to do that, you would think that in the the process, also, it took so long for the second movie to come out, so to make us wait as long as we did and come back with that lame excuse of a villain was just trash tastic. As far as I was concerned. That's why I still want my money back. But I was going to talk about a different villain that I feel this is, this is maybe a failure. I haven't read the books, but this is a failure of the movies to build this up the right way for me to actually fear him. I think one of the worst villains of all time is Sauron from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Okay? And I understand I may get ripped to shreds, because this is an epic and all that jazz, and it made all this money. And this is in no way an indictment on the movies being good. They are great movies, but this is a lame villain. Okay? Because I come away from this movie wondering, why am I afraid of a guy who's been in one scene, got his fingers chopped off and I never saw him again. There's nothing for me to be afraid about that, and he got beat by a broken sword. So he ain't even get beaten any real like fight, okay, like that. That was an absolute lame, lame villain. There. I got one scene of this dude who was killed by the the son of the guy he just killed with a broken off sword. There was nothing fearful for me, let nothing too fear in me over Sauron or his dang blasted bright eye that was a lame villain, and they needed to do more for me to build up Saurons legacy and why I should be afraid of him, why I should be afraid for him coming back into power. There's nothing. Nothing. Really did it. They did one scene, Lord of the Rings I needed you to do better on that end.

Reba: 32:26

I was thinking though about there are about the dichotomy of villains, good villain, good villains versus bad villains, or relatable villains versus unrelatable villains, and wondering if that's if, maybe there's more than two slices of villains. And so I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about villains that are, they're good villains by definition, but they're not relatable. And so I think, for example, your dad and I just finished the we just finished Cross. And the villain in Cross, no doubt, I thought he was very, very good. He was very, very good, but he's so diabolical, it makes him unrelatable. And so I'm just wondering if maybe, and I think about another one, The Joker. The Joker's a villain, right? And many would say The Joker is a good villain.

Terry: 33:31

Yeah,

Reba: 33:33

But he's

Terry: 33:34

Go ahead.

Brandon: 33:35

diabolical,

Reba: 33:35

diabolical, so he's not relatable. And so, I mean, you know, inform my perspective. I mean, help me understand this. All of you, all of you, all that think about this a little more deeply here

Terry: 33:47

On The Joker, The Joker is along the lines of another villain that I'll bring up in a minute. But The Joker, the relatability to that, as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that, on the one hand, the Joker is portrayed early on as just a normal person who has some mental health, some mental illness issues, and um. And in that respect, you sort of feel sorry for him as a human being, as a person, he develops into this diabolical villain. But I thought that the way the story unfolded, you sort of you understood some of the reasons why he was the way he was, and what drove him into ultimately becoming the villain that he was, another one is, and we've talked about this a little bit before, Aileen in Monster, she, it's based on a true story. The movie is and she's done some horrible things, but over the course, of learning about her background, what she had gone through, you understood how she got to where she was and relatable, unrelatable, not sure, but you do kind of empathize with her plight, even though she became what you know, is labeled a monster, this person that did some horrific things. So the two characters, I think, knowing some of the trials and tribulations that they've gone they've gone through, you can empathize with them, even though you may like them or not like them, consider them a good or a bad villain. I think the story, those two stories, kind of get you to understand that people are complex, and the makeup of a villain can be complex.

Reba: 35:57

I mean, I The Joker was a different kind of diabolical. The guy in Cross, the villain in Cross, is a different right bay, a different kind of diabolical. And so

Terry: 36:14

He is. But in Cross, Well, the guy in Cross, interestingly enough, was,

Reba: 36:17

so was a murderer she became. She was a she was a murderer. This, these, these, what movie was that? These two guys. Don't give away too much,

Terry: 36:34

no, I mean, that villain was sort of portrayed as not necessarily your everyday person, but someone who was part of society that you would not necessarily suspect as being the person, the diabolical villain that he wound up being or that he was. I'm trying not to give away any of the story in that respect, yeah, hold off someone. But he was someone that you could relate to as, on the surface, a normal person.

Brandon: 37:17

So yeah, I think Chris was about to say something the,

Chris: 37:23

I think, yeah. Aileen Warnos, you know, for in Monster, for everyone who doesn't know, early 2000 movie with about the first serial killer, first female serial killer, who was executed, yeah. And I think that one's a little tougher as far as classifying her as a villain just because it's, it's, it's, it's somewhat of a biopic. So as opposed to these other characters, you can take a lot more creative license. This is like somebody who's was well documented, and you can't really stray too much from the actual story. Whereas the Joker, you know, and some of these other examples we brought up, they're completely made up people. So you could take the whatever angle you want to with them, or whatever origin story you want to give them. And but I do agree, it does go back to what Brandon said about a good villain having a story, you know, and I wasn't sure which Joker we were talking about it, but I was, I'm gonna go with the Dark Knight Joker. He would, there were little there were scenes in there where he would tell somebody a story about how he ended up the way he did. And you don't know if they're real or not, but it is him essentially giving you this story of, I had it, I was fine, and then this happened. And so I do think that kind of makes him that it makes him relatable, because he is talking about these, these down moments in his life that led to him taking this bill on this turn.

Brandon: 39:01

Yeah, Chris, I kind of agree, because one thing I was going to say when we brought up the Joker is that it depends on the portrayal of the character that we're referring to. So if we're talking about the movie The Joker, we get to see exactly how he turned into the villain that he was. And in a lot of ways that is relatable, and in a lot of ways it's just tragic, and so it kind of hurts to see that that and is the end result. But you're also not necessarily surprised at some point people break, and he just so happened to break and turn into, you know, the character that he did. Chris brought up the version in The Dark Knight, where he shares a little bit about his backstory as well. But I think another thing is that we can kind of relate as to why people do some of the things that we do. And what made that version of The Joker such a good villain is that he basically put our worst impulses to the brought them to the forefront and made us had to make a choice that scene on the boats where. They were in charge of who blew up whom. And I thought that was perfect, because everybody wants to live. They don't want to be subjected to somebody else's decisions. And so that made him a perfect villain, because it's like, I don't have to make a decision at all. This is all on you, and that's why you fear him, because he's going to make you have to make a decision that you ultimately don't want to do. He also was super violent, but slow to it, if not, if you can believe that he didn't walk into a room and you just immediately thought he was going to shoot up the joint that scene, I think he walked in on a meeting that didn't concern him. I'll never forget it. He took the pencil, he said, watch me make this pencil disappear. And all he does is this, and they send the goon to go attack him. What's he do? He slammed the guy onto the pencil, tossed him aside, and then went right back to business. So at no point did you feel he was out of control, which also made it terrifying, because he just killed this dude, didn't think twice about it, had the forethought that he was going to do it, and then went back to business without any hesitation. I thought the Joker completely depends on the portrayal of the character, but I think he's one of my personally, the character is one of my favorite villains of all time. I want to go to one last piece of topic, at least when it comes to villains, because something else that we discussed recently is how villains aren't always necessarily a character. I'll start with my own problem, with Sauron, for example, where he was a terrible villain, in my opinion, with Lord of the Rings, and I've already expressed why, however, power and greed really are the underlying villains of the story of Lord of the of the Rings more so power, because everybody that came in contact with that ring, they got drunk with the idea of power, and it had nothing to do with a particular person. And so the ring ultimately is the physical representation, but power ultimately is the villain in that story, if you have a chance to be all powerful, you end up doing stupid things. They could have destroyed the ring very early on, but they don't, because they're excited about now having the Ring of Power. The King of Gondor is so drunk with the idea of having that ring so that he can be all powerful that he completely loses context, even putting his own children at risk, because all he cared about was being in power. So that's an untraditional view or take on on villains, but we kind of had that, that conversation. So I want to kick that to the rest of the panel. What do you guys? What do you guys think about that? And do you have any other examples of of, you know, villains that are not traditional?

Terry: 42:36

Yeah, that, when you said that, it made me think about how you could easily throw power as a villain in and now bring up a TV series Scandal, Scandal. Power, to me, was the villain in that and that you took the main character who pretty much distanced herself from all that, although she was dealing with power brokers completely in middle of politics on a daily basis. Later in the series, you find her in a situation where power becomes that, that thing that overtakes her, and she's the last person that you would think would be would succumb to that. But, yeah, I mean, in that respect, power is the villain?

Chris: 43:24

Yeah, I mean unconventional villains. I mean a villain at its core, the antagonist is just an opposing force. It's not necessarily a human with, you know, a complex psychology about it. That's the one we're used to. Those are the ones we really remember the best. But there's, there's natural disaster movies where the villain is just the weather. There's, there's movies where, you know, in in the wild, where, like, think about the gray, the move, the villains are wool, a pack of wools. I mean, on these stranded humans. So, so, yeah, I mean, I guess an unconventional villain could just be somebody that could be either a concept or just a non human entity, and I think we're conditioned to side with the humans in those instances. But maybe the humans are the villains sometimes, you know? I mean, one thing I think about is like, okay, Deep Blue Sea in our in our minds, these, these genetically enhanced sharks, are the villains hunting down these humans. But who was messing with the sharks? Like going there? You You could have just left these sharks alone. You're you're the one shooting them up with stuff. I. And then you get a bad one there hunting. It's like, well, they gotta get they have to find their own food. And you made them smarter. So, you know, I think you can, you can make a solid case in that particular instance. Well, maybe the humans are the bad people.

Brandon: 45:18

Yeah, Chris, with that in mind, it makes me think the humans are the bad guys as well in Jurassic Park, because if we hadn't messed with nature and brought them back to life, are they really chasing us? Are they really chasing the humans in the movie? So I agree with you on how you said Deep Blue Sea, but it makes me rethink how I view the bad guy or bad animals in Jurassic Park are, really, it's the human thing.

Chris: 45:42

I think we talked about power. What about corporate greed? That's, I mean, as as far as a concept being the villain, Jurassic Park is all about, that's what it's all about. Really, it's just, you know, you brand, you package, you sell, you do you rinse and repeat, you know. And so that's, I think you have a character on screen that pretty, you know, articulately, states what the villain is.

Brandon: 46:11

Yeah, Dr. Malcolm, I assume you're talking about that scene with Dr. Malcolm was talking about before we even think about it. You've done this. You package it and you're selling it, you're selling it. That's a great point. Chris, is they that right there tells you the villain in the story is corporate greed versus anything else. Mom, do you have a take on this one?

Reba: 46:31

I agree. I agree with everything you guys said about this. I was just wondering how much of a tendency there is to mask these villainous concepts, or, I should say, to package them as humans rather than as just concepts, though, with the exception of weather related movies, you know, like I think about society of the snow, for example, or weather is that you can say that weather is the villain. For the most part I wonder if we if there's a tendency to just mask villains as people, because audiences can't stay with a film. It can't stay with a piece of work that long that does not have a clear villain. I just wonder about that.

Brandon: 47:27

That's a good question. That's a good question. I think that's where we should go ahead and leave it off for our audiences, because be nice to hear back from them as well. So that's going to wrap up this edition of the Cup of Tea Critiques Podcast. We hope you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed sharing today's conversation. As we just said, like we could have talked about this on and on and on, we have in the past, we probably will in the future, but we look forward to you joining us next week and then joining us for another great discussion. You can stay in the loop all things COTC by subscribing on our website, at cupofteacritiques.com, you can also find us on Facebook, check out our Instagram,@Cupofteacritiques and on Letterboxd at COTcritiques. For Reba, Terry and Chris, I'm Brandon. We'll see you next week for another deep look with a deep brew.